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Predestination, Free Will or Both?
I'll try to get strait to the point but still make sure you have all the details.
I was raised Pentecostal with the belief that once saved by free will that there is the possibility of backsliding or losing your salvation. Over the past 10 years the Lord has really opened my understanding to scriptures that have made me take a second look at this belief. A few years back the Lord showed me that faith is always expressed with obedience. For example, Noah heard from God, moved with fear, and built the ark. So faith came by hearing, and the hearing came from the Word of God. In other words, Noah heard from God, believed God and obeyed God. The basic equation of faith. So with that in mind, I then understand that according to Ephesians 2 that I am saved by grace through faith, and not of works lest I should boast. I was drawn by the Spirit, convicted of sin, presented by the Spirit Christ's finish work on Calvary, and surrendered my will to Him. So to my understanding, I couldn't accept Christ except I heard by the Word of God(drawing of the Spirit), which produced faith in me to believe on his name. And then, demonstrated that faith by trusting in Him with all that is in me. So for me my salvation is not maintained by works, but by faith which is expressed in my choosing to obey. So not too long ago I seen something in the story of Peters denial that I had never seen before. It was that Christ (a)had foreknowledge of Peter's denial(b)Had prayed for Peter beforehand(c)said Peter would be converted. As we all know Peter fulfilled this prophesy to the T. So, that makes me wonder if according to God's foreknowledge that he knows all my mistakes and has already accounted for them in his plan for my life. The bible says in Hebrews 12 that Jesus is the author and finisher of our salvation. Philippians 1:6 says that he who began a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ. I believe that God is His own Word so this parable could apply to him as well as us. Luke 14:28 says what man who desires to build a tower doesn't sit down first and count the cost to see if he has enough money to finish what he has started? So if he starts building us when we get saved has he already counted the cost to make sure he can complete in us what he has started?
I don't believe in Calvinism by any stretch. Mainly bc the bible teaches that it is God's will that all should come to repentance. If I understand Calvinism right, there is an elect or select people that are predestined to be saved and no matter what they will be saved. And by the same principle there are people destined for hell no matter what. This is all based on the belief that God's sovereign will, will be done. But if that is so, then all mankind down through the ages will be saved in light of 2 Peter 3:9. Obviously that is not the case because the bible plainly teaches that whoever rejects Christ will spend eternity in the lake of fire. So free will plays a part. So my bottom line question which hinges on Romans 8:29&30 that says whom he did foreknow, he predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son....whom he did predestine he called, who he called he justified, who he justified he glorified. In my estimation, God's call to salvation is to all, but only some will answer. According to God's foreknowledge he has predestined those who heed the call. So is that how predestination and free will work together? All thoughts are welcome!
Sorry in advance for the poor grammar.
@ Tiger-Hey brother or sister, great answer, but I'm still uncertain that predestination means God chooses who will be saved and who won't. Correct me if I'm wrong but predestination hinges soley upon God's sovereignty which means his perfect will will be done. If so, that would undermine predestination completely because according to 2 Peter 3:9 it is God's will that all should come to repentance. The bible oft times uses the word whosoever will, to describe who has access to salvation. So in my estimation God in his omnipotence knows who will accept his call and who will not, and those who do are predestined. So how do you join predestination to 2 Peter 3:9? Thanks!
On a side note about willfully acting in sin. I wouldn't say that willfully engaging in sin means a person is not saved. I do agree that the true believer will not continue in sin but will repent if he or she falls. That is the work of sanctification by the Spirit. But thats my best understanding
8 réponses
- ?Lv 7il y a 8 ansRéponse favorite
Calvinism is false, and let me tell you why with all due respect to my Brother n Christ Tiger.
1 Peter 1:1-2, "Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, to the pilgrims of the Dispersion in Pontus, Galatia, Cappodocia, Asia, and Bithynia, elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, in sanctification of the Spirit, for obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace to you and peace be multiplied."
The Greek word for the phrase "who are chosen" is transliterated "Eklektos" and means "the elect". It is the same word used Romans 8:33 & 16:13; Col. 3:12; 2 Tim. 2:10; Titus 1:1 and Rev. 17:14 among other references. It is always used in reference to God's chosen people i.e. those He elects to be His.
The Greek word for the word translated "foreknowledge" is transliterated "Prognosis" and is the noun which is the basis of its verb "Proginosko". Prognosis is used in Acts 2:23, which speaks of God the Father's foreknowledge that unbelieving Israel would deliver His Son up to be crucified. Its verb form is used in Rom. 8:29; Acts 26:5; Rom. 11:2; 1 Pet. 1:20 and 2 Pet. 3:17. All of the uses of this word, in either its noun or verb form, mean a knowing of events before they happen, and are part of the omniscient nature of God.
Therefore, the verse quite clearly says that the elect were chosen based on the foreknowledge of God the Father. Please notice the grammar, in that the elect were chosen "...according to the foreknowledge of God the Father". The text doesn't say that they were elected or chosen in conjunction with God's foreknowledge, but rather "according to" His foreknowledge. The logical conclusion then is that God used His foreknowledge in choosing the elect.
Therefore, the Calvinist theologians contention that God elects someone to salvation without using His foreknowledge to make some determination in choosing the elect, is flatly contradicted by this verse. Clearly, on the basis of God’s foreknowledge about people, He makes the choice.
What I will label as "Classic 5 point Calvinism" states the following doctrinal beliefs, and uses the helpful acrostic (T-U-L-I-P) to remember them: T=Total Depravity of man; U=Unconditional election; L=Limited Atonement; I=Irresistible grace; P=Perseverance of the Saints. In this case, if classic Calvinism is correct, then the 'I' in particular leads to the inexorable conclusion that God creates most to send them to hell. If an individual cannot resist God's grace (the 'I'), and God elects only a few to salvation (Matt. 7:13-14), then clearly he elects most to damnation without their ever having a chance to make a genuine choice. This is tight logic with no room for equivocation and the non-contradictory Calvinist is forced to admit this. In addition, the 'L' (limited atonement, meaning that Jesus only died for those who are actually saved, and not for all people of all times) is shown to be false by many scripture, not the least of which are John 3:16, or 1 John 2:2.
Due to the fact that the classic 5 point Calvinist position leads to the conclusion that God purposely creates people knowing they will have no choice in avoiding hell (only give/direct His ‘irresistible grace’ to very few), I reject this position since the teachings in the scripture regarding His mercy would contradict this conclusion (Deut. 4:31; Jer. 3:12). It is true that all who pass the age of accountability deserve to go to hell, for all are born in sin and all freely choose to sin and thereby ratify their position as Adam's rebellious descendants. However, if those who pass the age of accountability are not given the ability to respond to God's mercy in order to be saved, then the unavoidable conclusion is that God continues to create the vast majority of people knowing they will have no choice but to be condemned to hell, since He will not direct His "irresistible grace" on them (a concept not taught in scripture). This conclusion leads to impugning the three most important characteristics (from man's perspective at least) of God's character - His love, mercy and forgiveness. In addition, scripture contradicts this position (2 Pet. 3:9; 1 Tim. 2:3-4). The Calvinistic notion that Adam's sin is to blame for our inability to be able to respond to God's mercy is inconsistent with scripture (Ezekiel 18 et al). Adam’s sin affects all who are born after him and gives them a predisposition of pride and unbelief which deserves God’s just condemnation, but God’s abundant compassion makes a Way for all who will choose to respond to it.
Source(s) : TR - ccriderLv 7il y a 8 ans
Predestination and free will "work together" by one being a subset of the other. Free will works better as a subset of an overarching Predestination much better than vice versa. Paul even catches himsel in Galations 4:9, "but now that you have come to know God, or rather to be known by God..." This shows us seeing things from our angle, where the Bible is FULL of verses that testify to God's sovereignty as an overarching truth.
- il y a 5 ans
Understanding forward of time what your life entails takes your freedom of option far from you and throws you in the bondage of fatalism. When persons declare that God determines the whole lot before hand they're in bondage of such fatalism. The Foreknowledge of God has harassed a couple of. Calvin misread Augustine and wholly ignored the mark on that one: We cannot task the time bound approaches of our humanity onto Timeless God ; when you believe it through, it isn't within the snatch of human intellect to determine how God Thinks (Judith 8:14) ; to claim in any other case is presumptuous ; but there is a rather simple reply to your question ; the rationale God went by way of such length restoring and retaining our freedom is for the reason that aside from freedom there's no honest love ; so while He knows our future, we do not ; and in this method we're preserved from what could be crippling fatalism ; yet if He simplest allowed those to be born that He foreknew would ultimately end up in Heaven (aka "the elects"), He can be changing parameters in the very existence of those elects, altering the path of and potentially unsafe their existence and even not directly motive some of these to now not make the correct picks and end up in hell in spite of everything (Matthew thirteen:29); kinda like a grand butterfly outcomes ; moreover the hypothetical lifetime of those who can be denied birth would stay as an accusation in opposition to God for having judged people's lifestyles on the foundation of His Foreknowledge by myself, with out giving these a threat to really commit inside the precise unfolding of time the matters that will eventually make them endure damnation. There may be nevertheless something that God does for the damned-to-be with a view to spare them any needless develop in their sufferings ; in step with Saint Augustine, even as adequate of God's Grace is made on hand to both evil and just right guys in order make it possible for them to freely prefer to like God, he will now not waste any longer of His Grace on the damned-to-be than necessary in order that within the ultimate Judgment no extra accounting and punishment would result from failing to adequately reply to such extraneous Grace. This is what Saint Augustine calls "predestination" and has quite nothing to do with the fatalism of Calvin or what we mainly call predestination for in the "predestination" of Saint Augustine, human freedom is preserved and that freedom is used satisfactory once we pray and worship.
- TigerLv 7il y a 8 ans
@For salvation it does not matter, and this is not a place for a lengthy theological debate i believe. You can find John Calvin's own words on the matter here: http://www.ccel.org/ccel/calvin?show=worksBy and make up your own mind. Or try the link as is my source. What it personal means for me is a greater gratitude for eternal security, and it creates a more humble attitude as He by His own will for His own reasons has chosen me.
This does not mean that I can not go to any man I meet on the street, and offer to lead him to Christ. It does not mean that I can continue in sin. If I did that nothing new would have been created in me. I would not be a "new creation" if I continued in sin. My old me is dead, everything has been created new. The inner man strives, hopes and lives for sanctification, in constant conflict with the flesh. Romans 6-8 describes this pretty well. If it is not like this, but you still love your sin, in the general way, you are not a Christian.
@Btw. it is brother:)
@Edit
2 Peter 3:9
"longsuffering towards us" "Us" is the saved, the people of God. He waits for them to be saved. God has an immense capacity for patience before He breaks forth in judgment (v. 15, Joel 2:13, Luke 15:20, Rom 9:22, 1 Pet. 3:15). God endures endless blasphemies against His name, along with rebellion, murders, and the ongoing breaking of His law, waiting patiently while He is calling and redeeming His own. It is not impotence or slackness that delays final judgment, it is patience.
"not willing that any should perish" The "any" must refer to those whom the Lord has chosen and will call to complete the redeemed, i.e., the "us". Since the whole passage is about God`s destroying the wicked. His patience is not so He can save all of them, but so He can receive all His own. He can not be waiting for everyone to be saved, since the emphasis is that He will destroy the world and the ungodly. Those who do perish and go to Hell, go because they are depraved and worthy only of hell and have rejected the only remedy, Jesus Christ, not because they were created for hell and predetermined to go there. The path to damnation is the path of a non-repentant heart, it is the path of one who rejects the person and provision of Jesus Christ and holds on to sin. (Is.55:1, Jer. 13:17, Ezek. 18:32, Matt. 11:28, 23:37, Luke 13:3, John 3:16, 8:21,24, 1 Tim. 2:3-4, Rev. 22:17)
"all should come to repentance" "All" ("us", "any") must refer to all who are God`s people who will come to Christ to make up the full number of the people of God. The reason for the delay in Christ`s coming and the attendant judgments is not because He is slow to keep His promise, or because He wants to judge more of the wicked, or because He is impotent in the face of wickedness. He delays His coming because He is patient and desires the time for His people to repent.
To your sidenote. Agree, but there is a difference in wilfully living in habitual sin, and sinning once a while. Note the Corinthians. Some of them go to sleep. God killed some, as they were of no use for His kingdom. Christians that are elect, but continue their sinful lifestyle, God removes.
There is people elect and there is people not elect.
Ephesians 1:4-12
"just as He chose us in Him before the foundation....
The 3 Attributes of God are:
Omnipotence - He has the power to do anything He desires (Job 42:2; Luke 1:37).
Omnipresence - He is in all places, all the time (Jer. 23:24; 1 Kings 8:27; Psalm 90:2).
Omniscience - He knows all things (1 John 3:20).
Out of these attributes flow His works:
Election - choosing who is saved (John 1:12-13; 6:37-40; Eph. 1:4;11; Rom.. 8:29-30; Acts 13:48; Phil. 1:29).
Predestination - bringing into reality his will (Eph. 1:4-5; Rom. 8:29; )
Creation - bringing the universe into existence (Isaiah 44:24; Col. 1:16-18).
Providence - guiding and providing for His creation (Psalm 135:7; Ecc. 3:13; Acts 14:17).
When we become saved, we become new creatures (2 Cor. 5:17). As a result, there is a change in us and we fight against our sin. For someone to go out and purposely seek and practice sin would be evidence that the person has not been regenerated. In other word, there has not been a change within the person. 1 John 2:4 ....
MIMI
Source(s) : http://www.calvinistcorner.com/index.html - ?Lv 5il y a 8 ans
Well technically we're free to do what we want (if what we 'want' is possible for us to do), but what we want is predestined.
Being free to do what we want, doesn't mean the future isn't already decided.
